Greg Cohen: What do you want to create that seems just out of reach?

John Maeda: I feel like I'm always reaching a little further than I should. I'm always living as if I may not get a chance to live longer. That defeats the fear I might have to try something.

How do you set up your environment or conditions to create?

I clean. I get ready by having the tools, having the information that I need, basically the raw ingredients. Setting it up, that's a lot of work. You've got to move stuff out of your brain to start to feel comfortable filling in that blank page. When you have materials that get old fast, that accelerates your speed. I don't work on timeless ideas. I work on timely ideas. That breaks me out of my procrastination loop.

What are the building blocks of your creative process?

I need the whole Technic set and the Duplo set and maybe even the Harry Potter special set. I need the chaos in front of me. I like to work with a broad palette. I don't have a process. That's why a lot of my creative work is unreliable. I like that process of starting from chaos and then trying to reduce. The more diverse set of things you begin with, even when you boil it down, has the juice of everything. If you make it out of 500 different ingredients and reduce it down to one seemingly simple idea, it has that amazing flavor.

What makes one idea more promising than another?

One is more fresh and risky. It's either fresh or way too fresh, meaning it's too early. It's easy to identify when something is good because there's a standard of good out there. But if you match to that, by the time you're out there, the zeitgeist has changed. I like to be a little ahead. When you do so, you tend to be too far ahead and you're irrelevant.

At what point do you test your assumptions or challenge your creative choices?

That's what the procrastination is for, doing simulations. I productively procrastinate where I game theory everything.

How do you know when you are done?

Time lets you ferment the idea and then urgency creates the explosion.

As far as media, what do you recommend on creativity?

I spend most of my time with Chat GPT. Not as a source of information but more as a gym, a mental fitness tool. I get Chat GPT to ask me questions, to question the information that I have in my own head, and it helps me clean it, organize it. The discipline of keeping it clean is really important and having a sparring partner is helpful.

Can you think of a time that a constraint was beneficial to your creativity?

Unconstrained problems are hard to solve. Redesign it with this constraint in mind and then as you're doing so you find something you hadn't considered, a different perspective.

Greg Cohen: What do you create?

John Maeda: I create computer code that takes my sketches on paper to make them real.

What are you working on recently that you are super excited about?

I am a co-lead of an open-source project called Semantic Kernel that lets any developer pick up the key concepts of large language model AI. And I have a YouTube show called Mr. Maeda's Cozy AI Kitchen.

What is your signature? What distinguishes your work from everyone else's?

It has been constantly changing by moving across many fields.

When do you do most of your creative work?

The mornings and usually with a pen and piece of paper.

How much of your day are you actively engaged in your creative work?

Over 50% of my time is spent creating. The opposite of creating would be keeping the engine warm.

What do you want to create that seems just out of reach?

I feel like I'm always reaching a little further than I should. I was just learning how to make a turkey for the first time. I keep making them, because I never thought I could make one, but can I make a better one? I'm always living as if I may not get a chance to live longer. That defeats the fear I might have to try something.

When creating something from scratch, how do you start?

Start very poorly. Start with lots of procrastination. I liked being younger where I didn't have a lot of stuff in there, so I didn’t over think it. I procrastinate hoping that I'll find the thing that I should know. Like cleaning house, you gotta Marie Condo it. You gotta throw out stuff that doesn't spark joy.

Do you begin with the end in mind, or do you let it evolve organically?

When I was younger, I would let it evolve. I wasn't thinking too functionally. I was more exploratory. Now I'm more interested in getting something done, I have the end in mind more so than in the past.

How do you set up your environment or conditions to create?

I clean. I need all the tools for my soil. I get ready by having the tools, having the information that I need, basically the raw ingredients. Setting it up, that's a lot of work. You've got to move stuff out of your brain to start to feel comfortable filling in that blank page. When you have materials that get old fast, that accelerates your speed. I don't work on timeless ideas. I work on timely ideas. That breaks me out of my procrastination loop. This is gonna get stale if I don't start.

What is your process for improving your creative ideas?

Show it to other people. But oftentimes you don't have access to them. You're showing it to people inside your mind. Artists like to live in inner dialogue longer, but designers have to show it to people sooner because it has to be useful to someone.

What are the building blocks of your creative process?

I need the whole Technic set and the Duplo set and maybe even the Harry Potter special set. I need the chaos in front of me. I like to work with a broad palette. I don't have a process. That's why a lot of my creative work is unreliable. The hit or miss result is very high miss. I like that process of starting from chaos and then trying to reduce. The more diverse set of things you begin with, even when you boil it down, has the juice of everything. If you make it out of 500 different ingredients and reduce it down to one seemingly simple idea, it has that amazing flavor.

What percentage of your creative time is spent prototyping or experimenting?

99%. That's why I'm so inefficient.

How much of your creative process is routine or habit and how much of it is spontaneous or improvised?

99% improvised.

You're like a jazz musician.

That's why it doesn't sound right sometimes actually.

What makes one idea more promising than another?

One is more fresh and risky. It's either fresh or way too fresh, meaning it's too early. It's easy to identify when something is good because there's a standard of good out there. But if you match to that, by the time you're out there, the zeitgeist has changed. I like to be a little ahead. When you do so, you tend to be too far ahead and you're irrelevant.

How do you know that a creative decision you're making is correct or right?

You only know many years later. Everything takes so long when it's so creative or radically different or divergent.

At what point do you test your assumptions or challenge your creative choices?

That's what the procrastination is for, doing simulations. I productively procrastinate where I game theory everything. When you're divergent you’re usually not well received. We're not ready for something truly different than we expect. The curse and blessing of a creative person is that they're never welcome at the beginning and may never be welcome if they made the wrong creative choice.

How do you distinguish when it is time to test and try new things and when it's time to dig deeper on something?

Time is the constraint that determines what you get to do. If you've got a year, then you can research. If you've got like a second, no time to research.

How do you know when you are done?

You're never done. Time lets you ferment the idea and then urgency creates the explosion.

Where do you find your inspiration?

Anyone who's blessed to have children or has a dog or a cat or a pet. Something about something you love that creates inspiration. Could be your parents. People inspire me a lot.

What is your highest yield source material or frequently revisited source?

The year 1996 was my most creative year. Most of everything I made draws upon that year. I draw upon that year of that person.

As far as media books, blogs, magazines, podcasts, like what do you recommend on creativity?

I spend most of my time with Chat GPT. Not as a source of information but more as a gym, a mental fitness tool. I get Chat GPT to ask me questions. It's not as a source of information but to question the information that I have in my own head, and it helps me clean it, organize it. The discipline of keeping it clean is really important and having a sparring partner is helpful.

When and where do your lightning bolt ideas occur?

Something about the shower, sound of the water, that relaxation moment.

When you collaborate with others, what is that like?

As a leader of a team, it isn't about your ideas. It’s about their ideas. When you're collaborating as a partner on a team, I find myself as the glue person who can bridge people's opinions really well because I can be an engineer. I could be a strategist. I could be a finance person. I could be a designer. I can switch modes. On a team, I'm the collaboration bridge. When I'm leading a team, it's about their ideas.

What role if any does feedback play in your creativity?

Very little when possible but always listening. By developing thicker skin, you're not gonna let it paralyze you. There's always an ounce of truth in every bit of feedback, but you're not letting it poison you.

What is the hardest part of creation?

Accepting that you will most likely be wrong. Although your skin is thick, the pain does get through. You're ready to embarrass yourself.

Do you have any notable obstacles, mistakes, or failures in your creative process?

A lot. Most of the time. There's so much failure in that one successful micro moment that nobody cares about now.

How do you make progress when you're blocked or feel like you're at a dead end?

If you're privileged, it's easier than someone without privilege. When you're in the hospital you're like, “OK, am I gonna get out of here?” Someone who's not well lacks the privilege. I'm happy that I'm mentally healthy. That's a very special privilege to have and I'm grateful.

How do you avoid falling into ruts or preconceptions?

I don't think you can avoid it. I think you accelerate your path through it by having better introspection. Critique is a big part of art education. Putting critical lenses on, test ideas faster, therefore, you can run from start to finish more efficiently.

Can you think of a time that a constraint was beneficial to your creativity?

Always. Constraints are the only way you find a path to a conclusion because unconstrained problems are hard to solve. Redesign it with this constraint in mind and then as you're doing so you find something you hadn't considered, a different perspective.

Greg Cohen: The first questions are about you and just to get a general overview. The first question is: what do you create?

John Maeda: Hmm. I create computer code that takes my sketches on paper to make them real.

OK. And what are you working on recently that you are super excited about?

I am a co-lead of an open-source project called Semantic Kernel that let's any developer pick up the key concepts of large language model AI. And I have a YouTube show called Mr. Maeda's Cozy AI Kitchen that is for non-software developers to learn how to use this new kind of AI, hopefully to their advantage.

I've been watching YouTube videos, and they are very interesting even for the Luddites like myself about AI. The next question would be, what is your signature? What distinguishes your work from everyone else's?

I don't think my work has any distinguishing factors besides that it has been constantly changing by moving across many fields. It hasn't been evolving in one place. It's been migrating across different spaces, which I think is unusual. Most people settle into one thing. I'm trying to do as much as possible while alive, you know?

Yeah, I've noticed that you bounce around a lot and touch on a bunch of different things. There's obviously synergies there, but I noticed that you do not stay in one place for too long. When do you do most of your creative work?

I guess it depends. I used to think I'm a morning person, but then I get a lot done the evening. As I get older, the evenings don't come to me as they did before. I try to get the mornings to be where that can happen, and it's usually with a pen and piece of paper.

Ok. And how much of your day are you actively engaged in your creative work?

I think over 50% of my time is spent creating. And I guess the opposite of creating would be, what do you call it? Keeping the engine warm? I don't know what you call that. Yeah. Keeping the car warm, keeping the car running or you're going somewhere. 

Ok. And what do you want to create that seems just out of reach?

I don't know. I don't feel that way. I feel like I'm always reaching a little further than I should. So, I guess whatever I'm doing now, like talking with you. I'm trying to find things that are useful for you in your, your endeavor, your interview series. And so, I'm gonna create something for you. I don't know if I could. Your questions are interesting. So, I'm reaching.

Like I was just learning how to make a turkey for the first time, a quote-unquote "Thanksgiving turkey," but I keep making them. Wow, you can get a lot of meat out of a turkey. Oh, yeah, I keep making them, because I never thought I could make one. And now I can make one, but can I make a better one? I don't know. So yeah, I like to reach.

That seems like it'll give a lot of people anxiety, constantly reaching and going into unexplored places, but you do it with great dexterity.

I know that one day I will be unable to do so. I'll be physically or mentally unable to do that as I get older, get weaker, et cetera. So, I guess I've always known that since my twenties. 

I used to work with AARP. They used to be called the American Association of Retired People, but that's just an acronym now. And in my twenties, I was exposed to aging and realized, huh, I'm gonna get older someday if I'm lucky, and stuff's gonna change. So, I'm always living as if I may not get a chance to live longer, I guess. And therefore, that defeats the fear I might have to try something because I'm like, huh, I get to do this. I should try that.

I like it. The next phase of questions revolve around process. When creating something from scratch, how do you start?

Start very poorly. Start with lots of procrastination. Definitely too much. And I lament that, and it gets harder now for me. I think it's because when you get older, you're carrying too much stuff. I liked being younger where I didn't have a lot of stuff in there, so I didn’t over think it, but, I think now it's like, I keep overthinking it. So, I procrastinate hoping that I'll find the thing that I should know. Because it takes a while for your memory to thaw out or something or some creativity requires. 

So, that's how I start. Long, long periods of procrastination, increasingly longer ones. And I stopped procrastinating when I realize, "Whoa, I'm getting older. I have less time. Better stop,” and I can focus. And that's the process. Is that everyone probably you talk with procrastinate?

I heard other people talk about it like a pipeline, and you have to run the water, and it's dirty water at first, and then eventually the water will start running clear.

I like that. That's a good one. I guess another one would be like cleaning house. Like you wanna bring something new into your house, but you gotta Marie Condo it. You gotta throw out stuff that doesn't spark joy, and that’s why there's no place to put more stuff. Mm. Interesting. 

And do you begin with the end in mind, or do you let it evolve organically?

Oh, very good question. I think when I was younger, I would let it evolve. Because I wasn't thinking too functionally. I was more exploratory. I think when you're younger you have all the time in the world to explore. 

I think because now I'm more interested in getting something done, I will have the end in mind more so than in the past, but still not as good as people who can truly laser beam focus. I'm more of a light bulb.

Ok. Chefs call it mise en place, and I've heard it called fertile soil or just getting in the mood. How do you set up your environment or conditions to create?

Wow, this is good. You have lots of good knowledge in your head. Let me set that up. I clean. I definitely clean. I need a clean kitchen. I need all the tools for my soil. I need it to be ready. And then get ready by having the tools, having the information that I need, basically the raw ingredients. 

But then it's that thing you're describing. I need to flush the water out. It's like I can have it all sitting in front of me, but it isn't like the fear of a blank page. It's, it's more that blank page setting it up. That's a lot of work. And now you've got to move stuff out of your brain to be able to find the space or the place where you can start to feel comfortable filling in that blank page. 

Time. I think time is the raw ingredient. The nice thing about a cook is that if you're using raw ingredients, you know, if you're a non-vegan, you might have a chicken or whatever, or in my case a turkey. You can't wait that long. When you have materials that get old really fast, I think that also accelerates your speed. 

So, I don't work on timeless ideas. I work on timely ideas. And so, I guess that is what breaks me out of my procrastination loop. Wow, this is gonna get stale if I don't start it, start cooking.

So, immediacy. It creates a sense of immediacy for you?

It's more about I don't wanna cook with bad ingredients, ingredients that go bad.

Immediacy is a word. Maybe necessity is the word.

Moving on to questions about evolving the work. What is your process for building, improving or evolving your creative ideas?

Oh, that's very important. Let's see here.

Perhaps a little too vague of a question?

No, that's a very good question. So that's why it's making me think here. 

There's two methods. One is to show it to other people. If you're designing things for other people, you should do that. 

But oftentimes, you don't have access to them. So, you're showing it to people inside your mind. You are getting feedback from yourself. It's that inner dialogue. “What do you think?” “Mm. I don't know.” versus talking to someone. And I guess the maddest thing about exposing it to people, I guess artists like to live in inner monologue longer – inner monologue or hopefully inner dialogue. 

But designers have to show it to people sooner because it has to be useful to someone. So, it depends on the creativity mode. If you're in art mode, you don't have to show it to anyone. For design mode, you gotta show it to someone to evolve and improve it.

OK. And similarly, what are the LEGOs, the building blocks, or the algorithms of your creative process?

I think the Lego of my process is variety. So, if you think about it, I'm sure someone could really do a lot with a two-by-four Lego brick. I need the whole Technic set. I need that, and the Duplo set, and maybe even the Harry Potter special set. I need the chaos in front of me. Many, many blocks serve me the best. Because I like to work with a broad palette, I guess. 

So, I don't have a process. That's why a lot of my creative work is unreliable, meaning that the result, the hit or miss result is very high miss.

It's interesting to me that you say you like a maximal amount of parts, because a lot of what I've seen of your work is about boiling things down or empiricizing or simplifying, like your Laws of Simplicity. Make many things into a few things.

Exactly. I like that process of starting from chaos and then trying to reduce. But if you start from, I guess it's because I believe in diversity, like the more diverse set of things you begin with, even when you boil it down, it's kind of got the juice of everything. 

Versus if I started with a few ideas, very few, a sparse set of ideas. There's not much to that. It's like trying to make something out of like five different potatoes. You know, it's like a potato. But if you make it out of like 500 different ingredients and you reduce it down to one seemingly simple idea, it has that kind of amazing flavor.

OK. When you have your initial idea, how do you nurture coax interrogate or cultivate it into a finished product?

That's where it isn't about me. You know, I love the Mr. Rogers documentary. Not the movie but the documentary. I like that a lot. It, Mr. Rogers would say, “Look for the helpers,” you know, people that wanna add value. Well, you have interviews then you wanna build, you're looking for helpers, and that requires a Mr. Rogers personality inside you. So, looking for the helpers means you can only make it happen if you yourself can't do it yourself. You need other people around you. 

So I found that every work I've created only happened because I found that helper out there. They wanted to see me create it. Whether it was an exhibition or a lamp or a piece of software. I think everything we make, anything a creator makes happens because there were helpers that took it beyond just making something, into something that other people could use or want or experience.

OK. And what percentage of your creative time is spent prototyping or experimenting?

Oh, wow. Probably like 99%.

I like it.

Yeah, that's why I'm so inefficient.

No. You get the correct result eventually.

Sometimes.

How much of your creative process is routine or habit and how much of it is spontaneous or improvised?

I think 99% improvised.

So you're like a jazz musician almost.

That's why it doesn't sound right sometimes actually. A lot of the time.

What makes one idea more promising than another?

Wow. I like how you are being... This is good. One is more fresh and risky. Often times you have two ideas. One is like “Yeah, that can really work,” and the other one is like “I'm not sure if that's gonna work.” I like the latter because it means that it's probably either fresh or way too fresh, meaning it's too early. 

It's easy to identify when something is good because there's a standard of good out there. But if you match to that, by the time you're out there, the zeitgeist has changed. So, I like to be a little ahead. When you do so, however, you tend to be too far ahead and you're irrelevant. 

For instance, I published a book How To Speak Machine in 2019 about the rise of artificial intelligence. That book was published too early. Took me six years to write that book. 2019, wrong year. 2022, that would have been a good year. That would have made my publishers happy. It's too late.

How do you know that a creative decision you're making is correct or right?

Correct or right… I think in all creative decision making, you only know if it's right until it's many years later. And everything takes so long when it's so I guess creative or radically different or divergent. So, you don't know while you're in it, you don't know the next year, you only know many years later. 

Like for instance, when I was President of Rhode Island School of Design, I arrived on campus, and I heard of this great tradition where the students and different staff members help move freshman who are arriving in cars with their parents all loaded up with stuff. They line up like, like for blocks in this long line of cars and the students and the staff like help move each freshman into the dorm. When I heard about this, I was like, “Wow, I gotta do that.” 

So, I showed up in my shorts and t-shirt as you know, the new President that nobody knew who I was. They thought I was a grad student maybe or something. And I'm greeting all these people in these cars and talking to his parents and they're like, “You're the president?” And I said, “Yeah, I really am the President.” So anyways, and when I moved, I would carry boxes with the kids, with the students and the staff and it was great. I just loved it, you know, but I was criticized for not being presidential by different people in the community that were important. Like, “No, that's not how a President should act or behave” or blah, blah, blah. That was a creative decision. I did that like every year and I was, I always get like complaints from the trustees or whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

Anyway, so my last year as President there, it was my last commencement. In that commencement, you're wearing all these gowns as President, so you look like this, no one can tell who you are when you don't have those gowns on. So, after commencement and walking through the commencement, no one can tell that I'm the President because I'm like wearing regular clothes. It was great. I'm about to leave and there's this three-story escalator and I'm getting on the escalator and a young woman gets on the escalator with me like on the just, just to the right of me. And she's got her commencement gown on and she looks at me and says, “Are you President?” I said, “Yeah”, and she said, “You know, you moved me in.” I said, “Really?” “Yeah, my parents couldn't believe that you were President.” I said, “Oh.” 

And so, we're just like going down the escalator, you know, the 3rd to the 2nd, 2nd to the 1st, 1st to the ground level. And she's just saying what a great experience she had and that was a nice thing to sort of have at the very beginning of her journey. “You said this, this, it really helped me and then, you know, here you are.” And, and then we get to the bottom of escalator, and she has to go find her parents, and I felt that that was the moment where the creative act was all worth it. But that was like years in the making. So, with creative decisions, it takes a long time to help you think or realize whether it's good or not.

That's a powerful story. I like that. At what point do you test your assumptions or challenge your creative choices?

That's what the procrastination is for, I think. You're doing simulations of something of the “What's gonna happen if I think this?” So, I think I productively procrastinate where I sort of game theory, everything. That's the best you can do. 

The second thing you can do is to have, have thicker skin, have thick skin. Just to be more prepared than average for having done something that may not be, you know, well received as a genius thing. You know, “Oh, what's he doing? What a bad idea.” Because that's gonna happen when you're divergent, because that one is like doing what everybody else wants them to do, they're awesome, but someone is doing something like, “Wait, what are they doing?” They're usually not well received. Unless you're paying like, you know, $500 to watch this incredible play on Broadway that's supposed to blow your mind when you're ready for that. 

But in general, we're not ready for something truly different than we expect. And I would say that's the curse and blessing of a creative person: that they're never welcome at the beginning, and they may never be welcome if they made the wrong creative choice.

And how do you distinguish when it is time to test and try new things, and when it's time to dig deeper on something?

I look at time as the constraint that determines what you get to do. If you've got a year, then you can research. If you've got like a second, no time to research. So, it's a time game.

Moving on to questions of finishing, how do you know when you are done?

Oh, you're never done. That's the problem with especially digital things. But you are done when you're making physical things. I like drawing with ink on paper or making things. 

I was so excited last night when I was drilling holes into stone. I wanted to mount this cantilevered shelf, and I was like, “I'm gonna drill into the stone wall.” I've never done that before. So, I've been procrastinating for like three months and I was like, “OK, tonight is the night. It is the night.” I think that time lets you kind of, what do you call it? Ferment the idea, and then urgency creates the explosion.

And what makes a creative project successful?

Oh, if just one person got it, then that's great. It’s that constraint. And like, “Oh, it made sense to you? Awesome.” 

Let me give an example. When the founder of Twitter, Jack Dorsey created the Square mobile payments device, I remembered I was at the event and I went up to him and said, “Hey, can I give these away at commencement at RISD?” and he said, “Sure.” So, I got this giant batch of Squares. It was the first batch that was three, they were all 3d printed back then. So, I think they're probably all handmade and I gave them away at commencement. And I remember people being so upset at me like, "What is this? What is this thing John is giving to us? We don't need this. Nobody needs this." 

That was year one. And then year two, I did the same thing. I did it alongside things like Kickstarter and Etsy, which were all foreign ideas. But I had this packet. It was a pack called the Entrepreneur Packet. They had a Square, had Etsy, Kickstarter, Behance, all these starter things for these internet companies nobody knew. Anyways. Year two, it's a bomb. 

Year three, it's a bomb still. 

Anyway, year four I’m walking around campus and then someone who really hated me in general (because I was a digital person in their view, even though I’m very hands on and craftsy...you know, once you're labeled something, it's hard to break that), she comes up to me and says, “Hey John” because she was head of the jewelry making department. Oh my gosh. What a department. That was incredible. It was jewelry and metals, I think, wow, they were like elves or something. But anyways “So hey, you know, we got an exhibition and we're gonna have a pop-up shop,” and she knew I like to shop. And so, I was like, “Oh, great. I'm gonna be there.” And she said, “You know what, this year we're taking credit cards.” And I said, “Oh, how are you doing that?” And she said, “We are using a thing called the Square.” And I said, “What's that?” And she said, “It's a mobile payment device. You know, you put your credit card and you swipe to the mobile phone.” I said, “That's awesome. I'll see you there.” 

So, to me, that was a perfect example of how the creative act worked for that one person who didn't want it in the first place. I find out those kinds of moments are the reason why we create, to see if one person got it right. Or got it right, more like understood it.

Moving on to questions about inspiration and collaboration. Where do you find your inspiration?

Huh. That's a really important question.I think that anyone who's blessed to have children or like has a dog or a cat or a pet, sort of. I know that's not the same, but there's something about something you love that creates inspiration. Could be your parents, you know, someone or someone you love. 

I think love creates inspiration, and that's where it's come for me. Most of my early work was inspired by my children, and then I think in later years now it's really inspired by the people that I get to meet, people like yourself. You're inspiring me today. I think people inspire me a lot.

What is your highest yield source material or frequently revisited source?

The year 1996 was my most creative year. It was when I created most of everything I made draws upon that year where I had just moved to MIT to be a Professor, but I was designing many things. I think I had a lot of energy then. And so, I look at the person from 1996 and I wonder “Who is that guy?” So, I have to look at what he did. And I draw up on that, that year of that person.

As far as media books, blogs, magazines, podcasts, like what do you recommend on creativity?

I recommend… as a bad recommender because everyone's like listening to podcasts. I don't do that. 

I spend most of my time with Chat GPT. Not as a source of information, but more as a gym. You know, a gymnasium, a mental fitness tool. I like you're asking me questions. I get Chat GPT to ask me questions. It's not as a source of information, but to question the information that I have in my own head, and it helps me clean it, organize it, I guess, get my living room better composed. Because as a running theme for anything people are asking me today, as I get older there is a lot of stuff in there. Your attic is so full. So, the discipline of keeping it clean is really important, and having a sparring partner is helpful.

I've never heard anyone say that they have Chat GPT ask them questions. That's interesting. When and where do your lightning bolt ideas occur?

In the shower. It's true. Something about the shower, sound of the water, that relaxation moment. Always the shower. Is that common among your people you've talked with?

Yes. Absolutely. That, and some people say things like doing laundry and the diffuse mode of thought. Just kind of you're doing something to keep yourself occupied but not to full capacity. So, you have capacity running in the background and something.

Yeah, I like the laundry one too. I hope people read or listen to what you're doing. This is really good.

Thank you very much. Is your creative process solitary, or do you collaborate with others? Which I know the answer to this question too.

Depends. Yeah. As an artist, it's solitary. As someone who works in an organization, it's always collaborative. 

When you collaborate with others, what form does that take or what is that like?

Well, it's interesting. When I collaborate with others, it's usually, it's either gonna be as a leader of a team. In which case it isn't about your ideas, it's about their ideas. When you're collaborating as a partner on a team, I find myself as the glue person who can bridge people's opinions really well because I have a lot of context on different… I can be an engineer. I could be a strategist. I could be a finance person. I could be a designer. I can switch modes. So, on a team, I'm the collaboration bridge. 

When I'm leading a team, it's about their ideas. What do you call it? I sublimate my own creativity to team mode. There's a third mode I know where there are artists who have artists of a team working for them to make their idea happen. I never adopted that mode in my lifetime. 

When I was younger, I idolized a lot of creative people and then when I met them, I realized that they had these teams of people doing their work for them. Which I was surprised by because I had done everything myself. I designed my own books. I separated the photographs, planes. I ragged the text. I did it by myself because I thought that people I admired were these individual forces of creativity. So, years later, as I've grown up, I don't make it about me when I'm collaborating. It's not how I'm designed.

What role if any does feedback play in your creativity?

Very little when possible, but always listening. So, to give you context on that: in the nineties, I was one of the few people who could write computer programs and exist in the visual art and design world. A lot of people didn't like me. I remember I was at this dinner in New York City, this fancy dinner and we're all introducing ourselves around the table. And then I said, “Oh, I'm John Maeda.” And then the person next to me couldn't help blurt out, "You're John Maeda, I can't stand you." And I was like, "Well, who are you?" "Well, I know you, you say computers are gonna be really key to art and all this stuff." This is the nineties, “I think you're wrong.” And I was like, “Oh really, sorry.” Awkward moment. 

All the way to I think it was five years ago, I was quoted in a magazine saying that design isn't that important or something like that. It was a beautiful clickbait quote. It wasn't accurate. It was taken out of context, but it didn't matter. So, designer internet erupted against me. All these people like “John doesn't know anything.” It was just so much criticism, and I read every bit of it because I was like, “Is that what you think of me? Oh. Interesting. Well, if I were you, I think maybe that's true, you know.” 

But that's that "thicker skin" notion. By developing thicker skin, you're not gonna let it paralyze you. It penetrates you. And so you are hearing the feedback, because there's always an ounce of truth in every bit of feedback. But you're not letting it poison you. So I think that's how I take feedback. “Oh OK, that's where it came from. I can see why you have that feedback. But you know what? I'm gonna stay with what I'm doing.” 

Or I get so much feedback that I realize, hey, I was wrong. I gotta say I'm wrong. Apologize and then move on.

The next set of questions revolve around challenges or obstacles. What for you, what is the hardest part of creation?

I think the hardest part of creation is accepting that you will most likely be wrong. And although your skin is thick, you realize that the pain does get through that. And you're ready to, you're ready to embarrass yourself.

And what stops your creative flow faster than anything? What stops your creative flow, like the flow of ideas and creativity?

What stops it is anything. I think that when you're in flow, it's so easy for it to get broken. I think that's why you try to stay away from people or something. You try to isolate yourself because it's so easy to get off flow.

It's a very fragile thing.

Yeah, like for instance, just now I heard the garbage truck, and I realized I was supposed to take my garbage out. And so, I lost my flow for roughly 20 seconds while talking with you thinking like, "Oh my gosh.” You know, I wanna give you more of my brain power but I was like, "What? I forgot to take my trash out." So anyway, stuff like that, it's a fragile thing. Explosive. Yeah.

Do you have any notable obstacles, mistakes or failures in your creative process?

Oh yeah, a lot. I mean, like most of the time.

Not to interrupt, but I love how nonchalantly you said that. Yeah, things go wrong, things go haywire, and you just shrug it off.

Yeah, I figured out. My trash will smell a little worse. 

Anyway. I found a story in the past where, I haven't thought of that in a while. I remember saying that. So I remembered, when I ran Rhode Island School of Design, which is really an exciting time of my life. 

And I got to experience a lot of challenges. There was a time when the faculty voted no confidence against me, which is the way to get rid of me. And the head of the movement came to my office and was excited because he had won whatever battle he was fighting in his own mind, you know. And he says, “John, you see what we've done, you came here and then now we're gonna get rid of you and we've proven to the world that you're a failure.” I remember there was like all this failure, stuff like memorabilia on campus, beautiful stickers. And telling the press that I was now, you know, done. And I remember when he came to me and I said, “Is that what you think?” So, I said there's something like I said, cause because he was trying to say like, you know, I was so successful until I was finally able to, you know, get taken down. 

And I told him, “Isn't this thing we teach the students of art and design, that for every success, there's infinite amount of failure. And do you not think I've failed in my past? You're only seeing the successes, but this is what we teach people, right?” Anyway, the guy was so happy. He thought he'd vanquished me. But I did recover from the vote of no confidence. So, I showed that guy. Yeah, so I think that failure hurts. That was a very hard time for me. I did a lot of feedback, listening learning and I recovered. But every success comes with so much failure. 

it's funny when you're younger, you get all these awards for doing something and you're not sure what they're for, and maybe you keep them. Now they're like, door stops in my house. No, “Like what is that? Oh, yeah, that's when someone thought that I had done something.” And then it was kind of funny because I think like, wow, there's so much failure in that one successful micro-moment that nobody cares about now. And I appreciate having not survived per se, but I appreciate having gone through that failure to be able to appreciate that little moment of success, you know?

I like it. How do you make progress when you're blocked or feel like you're at a dead end?

That's where I love what the young people have really helped us all understand, that you might have privilege. And if you're privileged, it's easier than someone without privilege. Like if you're like a mentally depressed person with very little privilege, you know, it's easy for me to say, "I'm blocked, but I became unblocked." But the people that can't get unblocked, I think about a lot. And so, I think about them when I say that I feel lucky that I know how to unblock myself. I feel fortunate that I can do that. I think that's all, I think about that point. Like some people can't and that's a really sad thing.

So your privilege unblocks you?

Yeah. I don't take it for granted. You know what I mean? Like when you, when you're in the hospital you're like, “OK, am I gonna get out of here?” Someone who's not well lacks the privilege. So, I guess I'm happy that I'm healthy, mentally healthy, all that stuff. That's a really very special privilege to have and I'm grateful.

It is. How do you avoid ruts and preconceptions?

About what? The work you're doing, or?...

Yeah, the work, your creative work. How do you avoid falling into ruts or preconceptions?

I don't think you can avoid it. I think there's no shiny path to a material creative outcome. I think you accelerate your path through it by having better introspection. I think that's why critique is a big part of art education. Putting critical lenses on, test ideas faster, therefore, you can run from start to finish more efficiently. But I think you can avoid it.

Can you think of a time that a constraint was beneficial to your creativity?

Always. I think constraints are the only way you find a path to a conclusion. Because unconstrained problems are hard to solve, so a constraint is like a gift. 

Like if you're creating something and something just doesn't work no matter what, you can either hope you can resolve it, or you can say “Well, I guess it's gonna be that way, let's just move on” and now redesign it with this constraint in mind. And then as you're doing so, you find something you hadn't considered, a different perspective, which in some cases leads you to a better solution that you haven't considered, and also you're on time.

And what is a telltale sign that it's time to abandon an idea?

It's when everyone's told you it was a bad idea and you yourself finally know it's a bad idea.

OK. About creative crossover. Do you have, obviously you do, but do you have more than one creative skill, job, or interest? Like, what are your interests?

I have many interests. I think my newest interest is just living. I've been working for so long continuously that I haven't lived anywhere per se. So, I'm interested in kitchenware. I'm always sort of modifying my kitchenware scenario. Like, I think it should be like one inch higher here, one inch high there. So, I'm designing little things of wood or plastic or just moving things around. I'm Marie Condoing myself in the kitchen for some reason. I don't fully understand it, but it's a new phase of my life. 

Oh, time is up. So, any last question?

Oh, I have plenty more questions I could go on forever, but I know your time is valuable. Thank you very much for all your insights, and you've helped me out greatly.

Well, thank you for your time. I love your project. You helped me too. All right. Thank you.