Greg Cohen: When you're starting something from scratch, how do you start?

Ivan Brunetti: Just a notepad, just this legal pad, or I have many notebooks. I have them in my work office, my home office, different rooms, the kitchen, the living room, and there's just always some kind of notebook, so I can doodle. Or even scrap sheets of paper, I just keep piles of that.

How much of your creative process is routine or habit and how much of it is spontaneous or improvised?

Anyone that does anything creative is improvising at some point because there comes a point where you have to make something or play the song or do the drawing and you really are just kind of winging it at that point no matter how much practice you've had. I think that sometimes, maybe something got lost from the sketch to the final.

Where do you find inspiration?

I have to sort of absorb the world a little bit and just let things flow through me in a sense. If I'm doing something for a book project, go to a bookstore and see what is out there. You start to notice certain color palettes or certain styles or certain fonts, certain approaches. If you step back from it, you see trends. I don't wanna follow the trends. The way I interpret the world is a little different from everyone else. And so I tend to embrace that.

What do you think that different creative fields have in common?

A balance between composition and improvisation. Your comprovising. You're always sort of composing, like you're trying to find a structure. You shouldn't really start with the structure. The structure should evolve organically, but the only way that can happen is to allow some improvisation and experimentation. But you're doing them at the same time.

How can I get to the level of undertaking the lessons in your fabulous book, Cartooning: Philosophy and Practice?

It's not always about technical skill if you have something you want to communicate. I have feelings and that's all I'm trying to get down on paper and if somebody else can connect to that, even if it's one other person, that's success. You just feel less alone in the world. What if I were paid nothing? What would I do? What if it was something somebody will find after I die? They'll go through boxes of stuff and find these drawings. I hope somebody does find it and it means something to them.

I have to fight this every moment when I'm drawing, that I feel guilty that I'm doing this and I'm not good at this and I'm terrible and I'm a worthless person. I fought those voices that were put into my head a long time ago. My revenge on all that is to try to put something a little more positive in the world. You hope that it connects with a million people. But start with one. Make it for somebody.

Greg Cohen: What is your signature? And what distinguishes your work from everyone else's?

Ivan Brunetti: That would be a question for everyone else more than me.

When do you do your most creative work? 

I'm kind of a night owl naturally, but the world is not set up for night owls.

How much of your day is engaged in your creative work?

I try to set aside certain days, so I'll try to just set my weekends aside. I try to at least have a half hour to myself every day where I can at least sketch or do something like that. I'm a mono tasker.

When you're starting something from scratch, how do you start?

Just a notepad, just this legal pad, or I have many notebooks. I have them in my work office, my home office, different rooms, the kitchen, the living room, and there's just always some kind of notebook, so I can doodle. Or even scrap sheets of paper, I just keep piles of that.

Do you begin with the end in mind, or do you just let it evolve organically?

In that doodle process, something else might come out that I didn't expect and I try to follow wherever my obsessions or interests might be. It's getting into a right frame of mind where it's open and accepting and it's hard for me to get to that point. I often think mistakes actually lead to progress or new ideas.

How do you set up your environment and conditions to create?

I like a cozy, almost cramped environment. If I have too much room to walk around, I won't get anything done. I have to be hemmed in a little bit.

What is your process for evolving your creative work?

There's a lot of gaps in my knowledge and I've just kind of developed my own way of doing things. I prefer to work with constraints and limitations. That could be deadlines or a size restriction on the book I'm doing. The more of those I have, and those are known quantities, it gets a little easier for me to start because there's not as many variables. 

At some point with every project, there comes a point where you have to break your own rules somewhat, go beyond the constraints.

What percentage of your creative time is spent prototyping or experimenting?

The first step is just kind of more free sketching. At a later point, I will try to put them into a template, map out the space you have, and put it into more of a structure where I'm thinking about the beginning, middle and end of a book.

How much of your creative process is routine or habit and how much of it is spontaneous or improvised?

Anyone that does anything creative is improvising at some point because there comes a point where you have to make something or play the song or do the drawing, and you really are just kind of winging it at that point no matter how much practice you've had. I think that sometimes, maybe something got lost from the sketch to the final.

What makes one idea more promising than another?

I think the ideas that are promising are the ones that lead to more ideas and the ones that just sort of start to stall, stagnate, or hit a wall, there's something wrong with that idea.

What makes a creative project successful?

Something came out that I didn't really predict.

Where do you find inspiration?

I have to sort of absorb the world a little bit and just let things flow through me in a sense. If I'm doing something for a book project, go to a bookstore and see what is out there. You start to notice certain color palettes or certain styles or certain fonts, certain approaches. If you step back from it, you see trends. I don't wanna follow the trends. 

If I have anything to offer, it would be things like humor or my ideas or the way I interpret the world is a little different from everyone else. And so I tend to embrace that. Usually things tap into something I've experienced or observed and it's always pretty personal.

What media do you recommend on creativity?

If something's been vetted, it's been around a while and we know it's good. I was always interested in things off the beaten path. I like stumbling on things when I was a kid. Maybe I have some vague idea in the back of my mind that I'm not fully conscious of, but I don't know what I'm looking for until I see it. I find that the onslaught of media nowadays is not suited to my temperament.

When and where do your lightning bolt ideas occur?

It's usually when I let my guard down.

What role if any does feedback play in your creativity?

Sometimes I'm struggling with a project or I hit those roadblocks I was talking about and then it's helpful to let someone else see it. But a lot of times, it's not that person's job to tell you.

How do you make progress when you're blocked or feel like you're at a dead end?

I'm going to bed and tomorrow morning I'll have fresh eyes.

What do you think that different creative fields have in common?

A balance between composition and improvisation. Your comprovising. You're always sort of composing, like you're trying to find a structure. You shouldn't really start with the structure. The structure should evolve organically, but the only way that can happen is to allow some improvisation and experimentation. But you're doing them at the same time. You just tap into something where I've had this in the back of my mind for a long time. 

This is one thing I like about comics. When you're reading them, they really approximate the way we experience life from panel to panel. It's sort of like our moment-to-moment existence.

Is there anything that you think is universal about different creative fields?

Everything is sort of in my head already there and I'm just trying to recombine it and surprise myself and see what might happen.

Who else can you think of that we should talk to for this project?

Somebody that is a mathematician or a scientist. I don't know if you want to talk to a plumber but maybe. There's probably some creativity there or problem solving. I don't know if you're talking to people that are athletes or anything like that. Where you have to empty your brain somewhat and let the body start doing things.

Does being an educator, an editor and a historian make it harder or easier for you to be a creator?

If I'm trying to edit something by many people, I'm looking for those poetic connections. I don't like putting things in categories before I start. Let the reader make their own connections. Everything I do is to try to bring everybody back to that point where they can't rely on just doing the thing they already know how to do.

I heard you mention in an interview that you “turn text lists into coherent visual composition”. Did you begin with a written out list such as “man holding dog”?

Whenever I have something where I'm gonna draw a lot of people or people in a certain place, I make lists. And then I edit there. As the idea starts to cohere a bit, then I'll make a list so that I make sure I get everything in there. What about the person that does this or how about somebody doing that? It helps me to make a lists and then I can edit the lists and it helps guide me.

How can I get to the level of undertaking the lessons in your fabulous book, Cartooning: Philosophy and Practice?

It's not always about technical skill if you have something you want to communicate. I have feelings and that's all I'm trying to get down on paper and if somebody else can connect to that, even if it's one other person, that's success. You just feel less alone in the world. What if I were paid nothing? What would I do? What if it was something somebody will find after I die? They'll go through boxes of stuff and find these drawings. I hope somebody does find it and it means something to them. 

I have to fight this every moment when I'm drawing, that I feel guilty that I'm doing this and I'm not good at this and I'm terrible and I'm a worthless person. I fought those voices that were put into my head a long time ago. My revenge on all that is to try to put something a little more positive in the world. You hope that it connects with a million people. But start with one. Make it for somebody. That was one way I would get over my blocks.

Ivan Brunetti: So, Gregory, nice to meet you.

Greg Cohen: Nice to meet you as well. So, how's your day going so far?

Chaos. I work at a school where it's like…there's just a lot going on. But I'm gonna switch gears mentally and focus on your questions, and try not to think about all the other stuff going on.

Well, thank you very much for joining me. I've admired your work for quite some time.

My pleasure. Thank you.

We'll begin with questions about you personally. What do you create?

Well, I would say the last five months, nothing. But before that, what I was doing was illustration and comics specifically, and children's books. So, I toward the end of summer agreed to do a new children's book. I have three, actually four, other ones. They're kind of comics actually. 

They're children's comics that are in the format of children's books, meaning like hard cover. And so they look like kids books, but they use all the language of comics, like word balloons and things like that. So, I haven't had a chance to work on that book, but that's kind of what I'm currently trying to work on while I balance that and my school duties. So, it's comics aimed at a child audience, let's say, like ages four through eight or something like that.

And what are you working on recently that you're really excited about?

Well, right now, that's my only project. Unfortunately, I had to put it off because it was, I think I mentioned in my emails to you, it was just kind of a chaotic semester at the school where I work. There was the longest strike in education history. Just a lot. And I worked kind of as an administrator as well as a teacher. That kind of took over my life for a few months. 

So right now I'm getting back into working on the this children's comic for Toon Books. And I can only do one thing at a time creatively. So that's the thing I'm most excited on is the thing I'm actually doing. I'm not good at juggling multiple creative projects. I tend to work on one thing and then finish it and then start another one.

OK. What is your signature? And what distinguishes your work from everyone else's?

I mean, that would be a question for everyone else more than me because I don't know. I think my sense of humor, maybe because my drawing styles changed over the years. Probably everybody that draws goes through these changes that aren't always intentional or conscious. So, you know, some of my work might look very different or it's for very different audiences. I didn't really start doing the work for children until 2016 or so. And that was kind of a big shift for me. 

But I think the one thing that's been consistent is my sense of humor maybe. For different age groups and different audiences, but I try to make everything I do kind of have a little bit of humor to it and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But that's maybe the one thing that's consistent.

Yeah, you definitely run the spectrum from dark humor to children's humor. I would say that humor is consistent at least. 

Yeah, you know a lot of those things weren't planned out. So it was just where I was at the time and maybe things aren't quite as dark as they were 20 years ago, or 25 years ago or 30 years ago or even 15 years ago. So, whatever I'm doing just sort of reflects where I am at that moment, I think.

And when you are working on something creatively, when do you do your most creative work? 

Well, I'm kind of a night owl naturally, but the world is not set up for night owls. So, it's kind of all over the place. I think I have to kind of work around my teaching schedule and stuff like that so it's never consistent. But generally, if I can get some uninterrupted time, which usually tends to be in the evenings and, I'll get more done. 

But of course, life is not set up that way. I usually have to get up early. Definitely not a morning person. So I tend to work more in the evening. And I think I focus a little better at that time. Writing, in the morning… Depends on what I'm doing, you know. I think I'm more creative in the evening. If I have to do something that's more kind of straightforward, sort of like write a letter of recommendation or something for a student, I'll do that in the morning. So if it's functional, I can do that in the day. But things that are more open ended and creative, I tend to prefer the evening time.

Ok. When you are working on something creative, how much of your day is engaged in your creative work?

That's another good question. I'm giving cynical answers because the last five months were just very difficult, and I had very little time to actually get my creative work done. But typically, when I'm in a good, rhythm, it's more like I try to set aside certain days, you know, so I'll try to just set my weekends aside so that I could have the whole, you know, even though like in the evening time is what I prefer. Usually that's not, I don't have a lot of choice. I can't really, it's not really consistent day to day, but I try to at least have a half hour to myself every day where I can at least sketch or do something like that. There are some days that I'm lucky to get that. And then I try to set up my schedule where at least maybe I will get like a Friday or something like that, where I can then maybe have Friday, Saturday, Sunday to focus more on something creative. 

I've tried to change this over the years, but I'm definitely somebody that is not a multitasker. Whatever the opposite is. I'm a mono-tasker. So I can focus on something to the exclusion of most other things for like a long time. And sometimes I'll work really long days, day after day, sometimes in the summer, when I'm not teaching and I have a book project or something. And it's almost better when I have kind of a really tight deadline because then I will just work long days every day. And that's kind of what I'm focused on. It's not a consistent, thing. It just depends on what the project is generally. 

There are many days where I get no creative work done at all. And at best I might doodle while I'm having my coffee or something like that, if that makes sense. It's very erratic. I don't know how to describe it, but when there is a deadline and I have to focus, then I can actually work pretty long hours and I can kind of hyper focus on one thing.

OK. Next, we're going to move to questions around process and getting started. When you're starting something from scratch. How do you start?

Actually I'm trying to see if I have something on my desk. Like just a notepad, you know, like just this with the legal pad, or I have many notebooks. So, like a lot of things are this size and I'm just kind of doodling whatever. They're not really that organized. I usually start with a cheap notebook. I think the new children's book I'm doing really started in here. I think I have all the sketches. There's pages sketched out in there and they're very rough. I tend to get bored if I don't have any room to make changes or improvise. And so I keep my sketching really, really rough. Basically doodles and sometimes even smaller. I have an even smaller sketchbook. 

So I just fill up little notebooks, and right now there's a bunch here but I try to keep them… You know, I have them at my job, in my downstairs. I'm in my upstairs attic here. I was able to get home a little earlier today. So I'm doing this from my home office but, you know, I have them in my work office, my home office, different rooms, the kitchen, the living room, and there's just always some kind of notebook, so I can doodle. Or even scrap sheets of paper, I just keep piles of that. But everything starts with a kind of doodling and free doodling.

Do you begin with the end in mind or do you just let it kind of evolve organically?

I think more the latter, I mean, I try to be organized. And every time I've tried to plan things out, the plans usually go out the window, and sometimes I'll think I'm gonna do something, but then in that doodle process, something else might come out that I didn't expect and I try to follow wherever my, you know, obsessions or interests might be at any given moment, and let that lead me. I don't like to necessarily stick to a particular end even though sometimes I do try to. 

I tend to overplan and overthink everything. But I also know that those are just sort of crutches for me, and I'm very eager and happy to discard those and just let the creative process take me wherever it will, like in a way that I can't necessarily plan. So, I'm not somebody that if somebody said, like we know we need a creative idea by 3 p.m. or whatever that I could sit down and really come up with anything. I would get really nervous. I have to be in a relaxed state. So that's why the doodling is. I'm really just speaking about myself. So I shouldn't even say when one is doing something, for me when I can relax and stop overthinking, then things start to flow a little more naturally. 

Again, this is just me. So I can't really speak for anyone else.

You're what matters right now. You have unique insights into creativity.

Well, I try. You know, I've written the books on cartooning and things like that. So I do try to step back and understand it. But a lot of it is for me, it's just getting into a right frame of mind where it's kind of open and accepting, and it's hard for me to get to that point. You know, like when I start, I'm very nervous and uptight and worried. Will I be able to come up with something? But, you know, the weird thing usually is I can. 

I'm more of a perfectionist in my head before I start. Then when I'm actually working, I'm less of a perfectionist, and I tend to be more accepting of mistakes. I often think mistakes actually lead to progress or new ideas. And I'll sometimes follow those more than whatever I thought I was gonna do.

OK. So I've heard it called mise en place or fertile soil or just getting in the mood, how do you set up your environment and conditions to create?

Well, usually I like an orderly environment, but right now my books are getting out of control. You can kind of see things piling up everywhere. And I just think my surroundings sort of reflect where I am. So right now, like I said, the last few months, I've just felt overwhelmed. I've let a lot of things just kind of pile up. And I prefer to have kind of an orderly workspace. Actually, if I move my drawing table by the window there... 

I don't have too many rituals, actually. Though, the one ritual is I always have to clean out my pens because I always wait so long between projects that the ink comes up in there. So that's become kind of a ritual when I'm ready to draw. I will  methodically clean out these ink pens. They're drafting pens, and get those ready. 

I spend probably too much time trying to think about the size of the paper I'm gonna work on. But one nice thing with the children's books is, there's basically like one standard size that the publisher uses. There's two, but the one I like to work in. I'm gonna just be consistent, so I always know. Ok, it's gonna be this size and I like to work generally at twice the size that something will be printed. So if something is gonna be six by nine inches, I will work 12 by 18. Sometimes I even go larger than that and shrink it even more. But twice as large is easier, mathematically, you know? So if I know that if I do something 18 by 24, it will shrink to nine by 12 nicely. And so I tend to, I guess that becomes something. Like I like to have my paper set up and so I tend to work on 18 by 24, a surface like that. And that fits my drawing table pretty nicely. So, sometimes I have done projects that are even larger. So as my eyes get worse as I get older, I tend to work larger and larger and larger. 

And this is getting far away from your original question. This is a pretty small workspace. It's hard to tell. Maybe from Zoom, but I like a cozy, almost cramped environment. Like, if I have too much room to walk around, I won't get anything done. It's like I have to be hemmed in a little bit. I can't move so much, and I'm stuck at that little table and then I'll get something done. Like I have to kind of have these boundaries or hem myself in. Maybe that's the aspect of like putting everything in its place. 

And moving on to questions about evolving the work. What is your process for building or improving or evolving your creative work?

Just hope. I hope that that happens. It's hard to say, you know, like, well, I'm gonna evolve my work or I will definitely get better with them. I try to do as good a job as I can with everything. And then I hope that that's just as good or better than the last thing I did. And all I can do is just, you know, put an honest effort into it. Kind of like a workman like approach, you know. And then, I think it's inevitable, we all somewhat evolve or change over time and hopefully that is reflected in some way in whatever I'm doing. 

I think I'm definitely more thoughtful about what I'm doing now versus when I first started trying to figure out how to draw comics, where it was just sort of, really just learning by looking at a lot of different stuff and absorbing it. It wasn't that methodical an approach. I didn’t go to school to learn art. 

In most respects, just self-taught, which is good and bad. There's a lot of gaps in my knowledge and I've just kind of developed my own way of doing things. But hopefully in that, you know, kind of my own way of doing things does, lead to things evolving or getting better or more thoughtful or more considered, let's say. And knock on wood. Maybe I'm getting worse. I don't know, it's hard to judge oneself objectively.

So, from where I sit it, seems like you're getting more refined as you go along.

Oh, I appreciate that. I mean, I think that might have started just as a trying to simplify what I was doing. Really the hardest part for me is that I have the most trouble with getting started. I always think some artists are really good at getting started but they don't finish things as easily. And I'm somebody that just has a really difficult time getting started. Once I get started, I will finish because then I tend to hyper focus and get narrow in my goal of getting something done. I don't know if that makes any sense.

It does. It seems like it's a lot about momentum for you.

Well, thank you. I think like in one way, to get started, was I sort of tried to get a little bit more mechanical in my approach, more geometric. And that was a way to kind of like, maybe it's the same thing of hemming myself in and being in a tiny studio where I can't walk around too much. It was sort of like putting some restraints or constraints in and I think I prefer to work with those constraints and limitations. 

And that was a way to get started because I didn't have the whole candy store. It didn't have a million different flavors of candy. I just had a few and I had to just work with those and I tend to be somebody that I think just prefers to have limitations, constraints. And that could be deadlines or a size restriction and the book I'm doing. So the more of those I have, and those are known quantities, it gets a little easier for me to start because there's not as many variables. So removing variables helps me get started. 

But then, at some point with every project, there comes a point where you have to break your own rules somewhat or kind of go beyond the constraints. But for me, that comes usually in the middle or toward the end where I feel that like, OK, now I've gotta expand beyond these constraints to get started. You know, I like having those, but I think that led to a kind of simplifying my approach somewhat and maybe that led to hopefully things getting a little more refined or that was just a byproduct of giving myself constraints, I think.

So what percentage of your time, creative time is spent prototyping or experimenting? It could be sketching for you?

Yeah. It's not really prototyping. That's actually like the later step. I think the first step is just kind of more free sketching. So the kids book I'm working on now at first it starts out really rough. Like I think this will be about such and such a topic. And then I will just start sketching what the characters or settings might look like and they're just really loose sketches. And then at a later point, I will try to put them into a template because most kids books are like 32 pages, plus there's end papers on the cover. You can sort of map out the space you have. 

It's not that the sketches are more refined or beautiful. They're still really, really rough and simple, but I'm starting them to put it into more of a structure where I'm thinking about the beginning, middle and end of a book, which means the beginning, middle and end of the story. And I'm very conscious of how much, what's in the middle, what's at the end. And so I try to start getting the sketches even though they are like really tiny thumbnails. It’s more to serve a narrative. 

Then I don't really know exactly how the narrative will be because sometimes I have ideas in my head like, “There will be a long scene where this and this”, like whatever five or 10 things happen. And then I'll realize, well, that takes up way too much space in my limited amount of pages, the number of pages that I have. And then it just gets a little easier to edit. And then once I figure out using very, very tiny thumbnails, I'm talking about like a maybe like an inch and a half to two inches tall for per page, there's a lot of cross outs and throwing things out. OK, this isn't working or I'm spending way too long on something that's not really important to the narrative. And then I can kind of tighten that up and then by that point, then I'll submit that to the publisher who's also the editor and we have more conversations and I'll edit that again. 

So as I get farther in the process, you're getting more into something like a prototype or template or how this will actually work. But I tend to start more with things being very, very loose and then they get a little tighter and tighter and tighter. That's not to say the drawing or the sketching gets to be more beautiful. It's more like everything I do is kind of related to narrative. So it's more like the ideas or what the story will be, that's what gets some more defined, let's say. And then I can start drawing because there's a prescribed number of pages. Yes, there's some creativity and freedom in terms of how you're gonna structure your story or how you're gonna maximize the use of that space. But you know, those things I think like everything for me just come into focus a little bit slowly and often it ends up different than what I first thought it would be. And then when I have it kind of settled and my editor / publisher seems like, “OK, this is a good place.” We have the basic thing here and then I'll start doing what I call the real drawing, which are the more finished drawings. 

And I've done that different ways where sometimes I'll try to break it into steps. So for me, it's usually pencil and then ink and then color. And there have been projects that I've done like, “OK, I'll do all the pencil work first, then I'll do all the ink work, then I'll…” But the last few projects, they've been more like on a page by page basis and a lot more conversations with the publisher because we've had more time. I think the first project I did was on such a tight timeline and deadline that I had to work in that more methodical way. And now it's just sort of like step by step where now it's just sort of like page by page. And as each page gets done, it might change what the next one might be. And it's a little bit more flexibility. And the structure is not as locked in because there's just more time to let it evolve and actually I think I prefer that.

So, OK. How much of your creative process is routine or habit and how much of it is spontaneous or improvised?

I think nobody would ever describe me or anything I do as spontaneous. But the sketching is to me, that is when I'm playing around. But, most people don't see that or it's not stuff that I show people. So, I tend to think that, ultimately anyone that does anything creative is improvising at some point because there comes a point where you have to make something or play the song or, you know, do the drawing, whatever it might be. And you really are just kind of winging it at that point no matter how much practice you've had or how much you think what you're gonna do. 

The act of actually doing something creative, you're flying by the seat of your pants at that point to some degree. And so, it might not be apparent to people because I, as I do that, I try to kind of have a particular look to it, and it doesn't feel that way. But I like to think that it's underneath there. So for me, it's all about kind of hiding all that stuff and I don't know, like maybe in the future and actually my the editor I work with has been encouraging me to loosen up more. When she sees my sketches I think that sometimes, like maybe something got lost from the sketch to the final. And many people I've worked with have said that because I tend to get like overly worried about everything and, you know, anal retentive and whatever. 

So I'm actually trying to let myself have permission to leave things maybe less finished, less perfect. And that's gonna take undoing some of my habits from the last 10 years to do that. But, I do enjoy the sketching process so the kind of open-ended looseness of it, the not knowing exactly what's gonna happen. And I'm trying to retain some of that in the finished drawings, but I think that's a process for me that I'm not really that far along yet with allowing myself to do that. Maybe I need to get comfortable with myself a little more. I don’t know.

What makes one idea more promising than another?

It's a good question. I think the ideas that are promising are the ones that lead to more ideas and the ones that just sort of start to stall, stagnate, or hit a wall, let's say, I think like there's something wrong with that idea. When they stop flowing, when things stop flowing, I know there's something wrong. Like sometimes I'll work on drawings, and there's just a point where I seem like I can't move forward. And I don't know what it is, but I know something is not right and I need to take a step back. So to me, it's sort of like when that flow just kind of stops or it's OK, that bumps. But I think like a good idea just keeps flowing into the next good idea on the next one and then when that flowing process stops, that's an indicator that OK, now this idea has run its course. I don't know, there's something not right and I need to take a step back. 

So again, if an idea kind of just leads to another one and keeps me going, then I know they're promising. But when that process halts, I have to ask myself why that might be happening. And I mean, it could be different things depending on the project, you might hit on something uncomfortable that you don't wanna write about or draw like in my case, writing and drawing with cartooning. Maybe I'm just not ready to deal with a certain subject matter or like things got very personal and I don't know if I'm ready to. So I have to ask myself “What is stopping here?” It's hard to completely step back and be objective and to know what the right and wrong answer might be. But to me when things stop flowing, that's when I need to take a look and see why is this happening?

OK. At what point do you test your assumptions or challenge your creative choices?

That's moment to moment, I think, challenging. I never feel confident, so I think there's probably too much second guessing. But that is just sort of a continual thing that happens through the whole process. You know, and I don't know. I, again, when things aren't flowing, that's when I might say, maybe there's something wrong in an assumption or something I've taken for granted. And I'm trying to think of the right metaphor. Like, a good idea. It's like the car is driving and it's a smooth ride. You know, and then all of a sudden it isn't and now that could be something wrong with the car. It could be because I've stopped paying attention and I hit a tree, you know, like you have to ask why, why is it not smoothing, a smooth flow anymore? Right? 

But for me that questioning is sort of continual with everything I do, like, how could I make this better? Did I really exhaust the potential in the drawing? Something like the comics for kids, I try to even with a minimalist style pack every page with a lot of stuff so that somebody could go back and find little things they might not have noticed. I put little puzzles and there's other layers to it and it's very gratifying when people write to me and people that read the stories or whatever to their kids and say like that the kids wanna go back and they look for all this stuff. 

The meaning, it's not something that you would necessarily notice the first time through, but you can go back and find other little moments of pleasure and seeing how things connect or that there was again, almost like little puzzles and games and just other layers, I guess. Two things that's true also for comics that are for kids. I try to maximize what I can do with my limited means and ability.

Moving on to questions of finishing. How do you know when something is done?

My humorous answer would be because I do everything at the last minute. So I've just barely met the deadline and so I know it's done because I've gotta scan it in and email it. And I tend to rely on that a little too much and have in my life where I just need that pressure. I don't know what it is like. The deadline is very helpful to me and I tend to work right up to the deadline. I mean, there's very few projects where I have not done that. And so there, you know, I get to the point where I can't second guess anymore. It's like it's due, you have to send it off. And, you know, sometimes there's usually room for corrections anyway and anything. Anytime you work with someone else, whether it's a publisher or an art director or an editor or whatever, there's often notes and corrections and adjustments that have to be made anyway. But I think I also know that with a lot of projects, I don't like going back and redoing anything. I've tried to do that at times in my life and I'm not somebody that is good at doing that. 

To my mind, a lot of the projects are sort of time based. I did this project from this date to that date. I handed it in. OK, maybe there was a little bit of time for some adjustments or corrections or what have you. But after that, I feel like, OK, that's what I did. That's the, whatever the drawing, that's the story, that's the comic. And I don't like going back because I do think of what I'm doing is sort of in, some sense, a document. I've noticed this, most of what I do, I tend to, when I print it, I do it chronologically and its sort of like, ok, during this time I did this project and I like to put, and I like to draw things in order as well. I don't like when I'm asked to do something like draw the middle pages of this or what you think will be in the middle and that, you know. I like to kind of go… 

And sometimes you have to do that because of the way book advertising works. They will want like two representative pages or whatever. But then as soon as I can go back to working like page one, page two, page three, just sort of, in that way, I tend to prefer that. And then I think of the finished project often is just a reflection, like a document of whatever it was like, you can see it in the order it was done. And as much as possible, I try to keep things that way. And when I've collected projects, I tend to go with the chronological. Like I did this first, I did that second and that's the order it's gonna go in. I don't like going back. Like a lot of my friends that are also cartoonists tend to go back, you know, in their graphic novel and maybe like redraw the first chapter or something like that or go through and, I'm just not somebody that has the temperament for that. So I tend to think of everything I do as that's the document of that thing. 

Maybe it's almost like somebody recording a performance or something and that's what it was. I don't wanna go back and do overdubs or whatever, you know. And every artist is different. But, I have found that I, just my own temperament is, I know I don't have the patience to go back in and if I fix one thing, I can fix a million things. So I will never finish anything ever again because it’ll just be by the time I fix that I'll go back and find something else I wanna fix. And I'm not good at this where that decision should be made, like, OK, this is good enough. And so I tend to use external factors and deadlines and things like that to dictate that somewhat because I'm not good. I'm not naturally good at doing that on my own.

OK, for you, what makes a creative project successful?

These are all really good questions. You know, it's, it's weird like, you know, I've, I've done some things and I've made money doing them and, I think I have to feel a certain level of pride, like, I really put my best effort into that. I didn't rush anything. I had enough time to do it to the best of my ability. And that's a purely internal kind of decision. I guess that has nothing to do with the financial reward, or whether something was well reviewed, or you know, it's purely personal. There are many things that I like that other people didn't that I did and vice versa. There are things that other people liked where I thought it's ok, you know. And so ultimately, I think I'm my own arbiter of what I think was successful. 

And generally, for me, it just reflects my best effort and maybe revealed something about me or I learned something along the way or I had an insight. And I feel like a different person after doing it or I've learned something about myself and those are the things that I use as criteria. And I think, oh, that was successful. Like I progressed in some way, whether it's technical ability, or I was able to communicate something I haven't before, or I know a lot of times it's sort of like something came out that I didn't really predict. I tend to look at that as a criteria actually. Like, this went somewhere that I didn't expect and I get a pleasant surprise from it myself. So if I get some enjoyment from it, that is ultimately enjoyment in quotes. Sometimes it's painful stuff that I'm drawing, but there's some satisfaction for me. 

So again, it's a purely personal, private kind of criteria, criteria that would be hard to explain to other people.

OK. Where do you find inspiration?

I think for me, it's just the kind of the world around me. I mean, for me, I'm stuck trying to come up with ideas for something. I have to take a walk. I have to sort of absorb the world a little bit and put myself in the world and just let things almost like flow through me in a sense. There have been times where I might, if I'm doing something for a book project, go to a bookstore and see what is out there. And then I tend to be a little bit contrarian and then I'll think like, well, I don't wanna do what everyone's doing. And if you do go, even with used bookstores, there's very few bookstores anymore anyway. But, you start to notice like other certain color palettes or certain styles or certain fonts, certain approaches. If you step back from it, you see trends, I guess, and I just think like, well, I don't wanna follow the trends. I mean, somebody might look at that and decide like, well, it looks like people really like purple and green right now. And somebody might say I'm gonna do something like that because that would be more marketable or palatable. 

And I'm just the opposite of that. I think like, well, if it's all purple and green, then I'm gonna do orange and blue or something like that. You know, like I just I don't have a ton of confidence in my drawing ability. I don't think I'm that good at drawing. I think if I have anything to offer, it would be things like humor or my ideas or the way I interpret the world is a little different from everyone else. And so I tend to embrace that. Like, what can I do? That's not what everyone else is doing. Now having said that of course we all exist in the same cultural soup. So I'm sure on some level, I am doing what everyone else is doing because certain things we're not all aware of what we're doing, you know. I am in the same world as everyone else. So as much as I'm trying to do things a little bit differently, I'm sure someone else could look at it from a perspective that's even farther away and go, “Oh no, no, this just kind of fits in with the bigger picture”, you know, but I try to just offer something to the best of my ability a little different than what other people might be doing. 

Or I know that I have to stand out in a different way. It's not gonna be because the drawing is so great and so detailed and so texturally perfect. I have limited ability when it comes to that. So I can control things more like the overall design or what I'm communicating. Maybe like the content more than the form, you know, I just try to stay true to what I can offer. But inspiration, I find that very hard to predict, you know. Like I can't sit down and say, OK, I'm gonna be inspired by something now. And it's usually not other art or other books really because I just think like, well that's been done. So I try to get that stuff out of my head. I mean, I'm sure it does impact me, but I think for me it's just getting into this kind of internal headspace and thing. It’s usually things tap into something I've experienced or observed, you know, and it's always like pretty personal, OK? Memories, my dreams. It could be anything but it's usually how I take in the world, I guess.

What media like books, blogs or magazines or podcasts do you recommend on creativity?

Hm. Most of those, I do not. I'm very out of the world of blogs and media and classic literature. You know, if something's been vetted, it's like been around a while and we know it's good. A lot of what I teach is in some ways based on narrative. I think people that get into comics or some aspect of visual narrative, I think it would benefit everyone to just read more books and things that have a literary merit and quality. Now, having said that I'm not as well versed on modern fiction and I'm just trying to catch up on all the old stuff, you know. 

I always have a million books and I have trouble finishing books, but right now I'm reading this one, A Life of One's Own: Nine Women Writers Begin Again. So its women novelists from the last couple 100 years and stuff like anything where somebody got over a block or had like a hurdle to overcome and was able to write. I'm always interested in not only like what they have written but how they got there. So that's just happened to be right next to me. 

So, when I was first really getting interested in doing comics or a lot more things like zines, there's someone who's actually doing one called Mindshaft. Just got this in the mail. And it's sort of like a classic, has comics, poetry and writing, kind of like homemade handmade small press books, almost like chap books or that kind of thing. And I was always interested in things off the beaten path. And I guess I still am. Just something where it has that personal passion to it. I'm always looking for those things. I don't listen to podcasts and I don't really follow any blogs. I go through the New York Times website briefly, get depressed after five minutes, and I know I can't fix all the problems in the world. And when I have more time I try to educate myself more, but I don't read necessarily too many columnists. I mean, you know, I get things like the New Yorker magazine and I go through that, and that's one way of keeping track of if there's a new writer or there's this new thing going on in the world. But, like a social media, not good at that. Blogs, podcasts? I'm just hopelessly stuck like in the year 2000 or something. 

So I still like paper better, you know. But I know the world is not going that way. So there's gonna be less and less paper and I should probably just get with the program. But, I still like going to bookstores, used bookstores. I like stumbling on things when I was a kid. I used to like to go to the library and, again, kind of taught myself a lot of things. But I just like walking around and being surprised by something and then getting obsessed with things and I like to do a deep dive when I get it. I think that would be good for everyone too. 

There's so many things coming at us at all moments nowadays. I don't even know how young people can sift through all that. For me, it's overwhelming. I like to take a leisurely walk and even go to a used bookstore often. I really don't know what I'm looking for and maybe that's connected to creativity. Maybe I have some vague idea that in the back of my mind that I'm not fully conscious of, but I don't know what I'm looking for until I see it, until I find it. I can't get there unless I put myself in a situation where I'm open to a lot of different things and then once I get interested in something I can go pretty deeply into it. But I find that the onslaught of media nowadays is not suited to my temperament. You know, I just feel like I cannot keep up. It's just too much for me. I wanna go into a box and close it up and just like, please no more sensory input for like two weeks, so I can just get into my own head a little bit and not have the bombardment of everything. Not a way other people should be. I don't want to make it sound like I'm prescribing how I think everyone should be. This is just me. I'm just purely speaking for myself. Other people do just fine with this stuff. For me, it's difficult to navigate. But I am not saying that the way I am is a good way to be or that other people should be that way. 

Other than that, it would be nice if everybody slowed down sometimes and really paid attention to things in a deeply focused way if just for a little bit each day. And I think drawing is great for that. And I'm sorry to go on and on, but having taught drawing as well, young people are losing that ability more and more to look closely at things because they're just bombarded with visual information at all times. And I think there's still some value with looking at something for a long time. Looking closely and drawing is a way of thinking about it. And how does this thing exist in the world? What is its context? How does it, whatever it might be, whether you're drawing an object or whatever… And I think there's value to at times slowing down. And again, it's like letting the world seep in a little bit more rather than just keep finding more and more stuff to overload our brains with. But that's as far as I'll go as far as giving advice to anyone. 

And I could be totally wrong. Maybe my way of thinking about things will just be obsolete in a few years, because it just won't matter anymore. But for now, I think there's some value to that and maybe that is the way to sum up a lot of what I've said is giving time to even just reflect upon yourself as a person and what we're doing. And I ask myself quite often like you were asking quite a lot of questions about how do you know if something is right or the best way or productive? But I also think that's true beyond creative projects with everything, you know, like am I doing the right thing morally or ethically? I do feel like those are things worth asking oneself, and so sometimes holding the world at bay for a little bit and just giving yourself time to reflect and get into that internal space a little bit is important too.

Excellent. When and where do your lightning bolt ideas occur?

I don't know if I've ever had a lightning bolt, maybe like a little static electricity spark. Maybe that's as far as it goes for me. It's never been something I could predict. I mean, I might be washing the dishes and I have an idea, or taking a walk. It's usually when I let my guard down. And sometimes it's when you focus on something else. And it could be something that's not mindless but less complex a task and you can do that thing and then I think other ideas enter your mind because you're focused on something like washing the dishes or dusting your toy collection, speaking for myself. But, it's never something I can predict, but I think it’s usually like you have to let yourself be vulnerable and be open somewhat.

OK. What role if any does feedback play in your creativity?

Very little. Other than the feedback of people that are paying for something like if I'm working with a publisher or an editor. Yes, of course, their feedback, they're the ones I'm doing the project for them. It's sort of a collaboration. So, in that sense, it's not so much feedback. I guess it is. Maybe we're just using a different word that's more like I am doing a job for someone. And so, if there's an editor involved or a publisher or somebody vetting what I'm doing in some way, I'm gonna do what it takes to satisfy the person paying, you know, what the agreement is. I said I would do a book to a certain level and so I will meet that. And if they have those aren't really like suggestions, those are more like it's a back and forth kind of thing about what might be better. And I feel like that's just doing my job as an artist. And especially in illustration or even like, again with the comics I'm doing, there's a specific audience. I can't just do whatever I feel like. And so I am providing something for this person that is gonna sign the paycheck for me. 

As much as possible, I like to work with people that give me as much freedom as possible. At the same time, I ask for feedback kind of early on usually, just to get going. And then once I'm doing something, it becomes more like corrections and adjustments. If I'm working on something where I don't really have to answer to anyone, which is very rare, but there are things like that, that's where it's sort of like the feedback is meaningless in a sense because the project is me. I'm the only one. Nobody's asked me to do it. Like nobody's paying me to do it sometimes. And then I just think, like I answer only to myself in that case. And so that I'm not looking for feedback in that sense. 

Sometimes I'm struggling with a project or I hit those roadblocks I was talking about and then it's helpful to let someone else see it. But a lot of times, you know, it's not that person's job to tell you. If I show my wife, she might say, “Well, this part here seems hard to read or I don't understand what that is, or your drawing is not clear”, and that's helpful. But I can't expect anyone else to solve the whole, like a bigger problem because ultimately I have to create the whole work. 

So, yeah, if I could revise the answer, if it's a project that's really just for myself, feedback is not a part of it. If I'm doing something where someone is paying me and I'm collaborating with them, then of course, I look at that as part of what I'm doing and I will take their notes on how to make something better because ultimately, they're publishing it. So there have been times where I didn't agree and I will let the person know that. I've had some projects over the years where I felt like I had to stand my ground and sometimes I lose the battle. There's been a few times where I won the battle and somebody came around to my way of thinking about it when I explained what I was doing and why. So, it's not to say that I just kind of never have my opinion in there, but I definitely try to work with people I trust. So when they do have feedback, I know that it's, that's the right thing to do. They know better than I do. 

Over the years, I've just stopped doing a lot of things where I don't have that level of trust because then the feedback just becomes a drudgery. But I'm pretty lucky now in the sense that I have this teaching position. I'm not hustling as much in terms of doing illustration work and comics. I can work with people that I trust. And I will gladly accept their help and opinions. And so to me that's good. I'm doing very little where I feel like I'm stuck having to take somebody's feedback that I don't really wanna do. That's just from being alive a certain amount of years, I guess.

What stops your creative flow faster than anything?

Boy, I don't know. I get distracted very easily. That's maybe why I have to stay away from going down these rabbit holes with the internet. I mean, if I start looking at the internet, forget it. There goes an hour. There goes two hours. That and I'm not drawing. And so I think just the second I get distracted by anything else and that usually is gonna be the internet or television or something like that. What's the word for it? It's sort of like, it's all over. My brain will shift into that mode because that's easier. I'm a passive, it's much more passive. So maybe things where I can become more of a passive recipient of what visual information or words or other narratives. That stops me from my own process, I think because, again, I get distracted very quickly.

OK, how do you make progress when you're blocked or feel like you're at a dead end?

Boy, I mean, many times I don't and I just need to walk away from what I'm doing for a bit. That's where taking a walk helps sometimes, you know? This is all I can do for tonight. I'm going to bed and tomorrow morning I'll have fresh eyes and look at what I'm doing again. It's sort of removing myself temporarily from what it might be. And I need to come to it. I come back to whatever it is with an open mind and a clear mind. So sometimes just stepping away helps.

Ok. How do you avoid ruts and preconceptions?

How do I avoid ruts, did you say? I don't know if I do. I get into a lot of them. So, I think it's just, as I'm getting older, avoiding certain red flags. I know certain kind of projects, I'm not gonna enjoy that and the money is not worth it. I think if there's one thing I've learned over the years, there's good money and bad money. And sometimes I know certain things really are not gonna… I mean, there's money there and I can do those things, but I'm not gonna grow as an artist or a person and then things become just drudgery. That's one way to avoid a rut is just learning your own red flags, like, I don't like doing that and the money is not really worth it. And the preconceptions?

Yes.

Well, I stay pretty open minded to new things that I haven't done before. Like, if somebody asked me to do something, I get kind of afraid of things where I don't have experience. But, sometimes that is good to not have a preconception. One example I always use, I don't play any kind of instrument. I don't know anything about music. But if somebody told me, you have to come up with a symphony, I have no ability to do that. But I think it might be an interesting project because maybe I would find a different way to use sound. Other people have done that, concrete music, you know. But I think that could be good, you know. It's sort of like, I don't really know how to do that but then sometimes somebody asks you to do something that's outside your comfort zone, you might have new ideas that you could bring back to the work that you're more comfortable doing. 

So, every once in a while, it's good to just feel that complete fear that you're gonna mess up and you don't know what you're doing because sometimes I think something interesting happens in that process where maybe you come up with a more creative way to attack the project because you can't rely on skills you already have or that you know how to do a certain thing, and you can repeat those things. But yeah, sometimes, just removing a preconception, I think might lead to a breakthrough. Like just a different way of thinking about something.

In that vein, what skill or technique from a different field would you like to bring into your work?

Well, I started just kind of for fun doing murals. I've only done a couple of them. And I'm terrible at painting. I don't have any experience painting really. But I sometimes I think about just maybe starting to work directly with paint because I don't work there. I work in pencil, ink, and I've been using the computer for color because I'm not good at painting. But the interesting thing is that I'm actually looking more and more to simplify what I do. Even like removing the ink part and working with something like just pencil. So, on the one hand, it's sort of like getting more and more elemental in some ways is appealing to me. Having again more and more constraints and more and more limitations. 

But one thing I would like to play around more is just kind of working directly with paint. And, I don't have any confidence with that. I've never been good at it. So every attempt I've made has been abortive at best, but I would like to do that because I think it might lead to new ideas in terms of how I might or might not use color for future projects. And right now I've just been in this rut of relying on Photoshop. So I just want to get away from the computer sometimes.

What is a telltale sign that it's time to abandon an idea?

I don't know if there is a telltale sign. I mean, often you make an agreement. For me doing illustration work or having a publisher for comics, you can't just walk away without messing up other people and their plans. So it's not so easy as to just say, “Ah whatever, you know, I'm done.” There's other people and other people's jobs at stake and money that people have invested in me and at stake. I don't feel that comfortable just abandoning something. 

I think it's more just over time I've learned to not get involved to begin with because I have a feeling I'm gonna have to abandon that. I'm just not really feeling that and sometimes I think, “Oh, I should take that on.” I'll feel guilty or something. So just not getting involved in the first place would be ideal. I've had to get out of projects but it's kind of painful a lot of times. And I don't like doing that if I agree to something. I like to finish it. 

But again, it just comes back to stagnation is always the sign. Like things are not progressing. I've stopped and ideas don't lead to other things. They don't keep you propelled moving forward and you're just the stopped car. And to me, you know this might not go anywhere. Like you're on quicksand or something, you're just gonna sink. It's when the flow stops happening, you know things are not flowing anymore and that's usually a sign something is not right. That you either have to fix or if it cannot be fixed, that's maybe the telltale sign of this needs to be abandoned. I would prefer to abandoning something to just take a few steps back and see where the problem is and see if I can change the tire and get the car back on the road sometimes. That's all it is. It's just you need to stop and move back a little bit.

OK. What do you think that different creative fields have in common? Is there anything universal to different creative fields?

Yeah. It's like a balance between composition and improvisation. I made up this word a while back: you're comprovising. You're always sort of composing, like you're trying to find a structure. You shouldn't really start with the structure. The structure should kind of evolve organically, but the only way that can happen is to allow some improvisation and experimentation. And you don't know where things are gonna go, and to me, it's like you're just at any given moment sort of balancing those. But you're doing them at the same time. I think in some ways we make a lot of words to distinguish things and then in the end, I think words don't quite capture the complexity. That we do a lot of things at once. 

So like right now, if someone said, “Hey, we wanted to do a book”, and I would have no idea what it would be. The first thing I would do is start sketching and doodling and seeing what comes out of my hand. And I might spend a little time and I might notice, “Oh, I seem to be drawing this thing over and over again.” Or I've come back to sometimes you just tap into something where I've had this in the back of my mind for a long time. So in some sense that's unstructured, but at the same time as I'm doing that, I'm trying to lead myself to some sort of structure. So I'm in a rudimentary way, sort of composing something. I'm like, “OK, well, I'm gonna do a story about whatever it is.” I don't know if I can completely separate those two things. Am I winging it or am I working toward a structure? We're kind of always doing both at once. It's sort of at any given moment… 

This is one thing I like about comics. When you're reading them, they really approximate the way we experience life from panel to panel. It's sort of like our moment-to-moment existence. I’m aware of what I'm doing right now. Moving my hands, and I'm talking to you. Every so often I get a little flash of insight that there's a bigger world than this. There's more outside my attic, what's going on outside. I'm hearing sounds on the street. You can keep expanding outward to the whole planet and the God, you know. We're always kind of going, at any given moment. We're aware of the moment to moment things, but we're also aware that there's a larger structure that we're a part of or a bigger picture. And I don't know if you can completely separate those things. I think we're aware at all times of all, both of those things. That life is sort of moment to moment, of what's right in front of you. But at the same time, we exist in a context. Now I'm going out on a limb here. But what was the original question before I went on this tangent here?

Is there anything that you think is universal about different creative fields?

I went kind of far afield from the question, but it's that at any given moment we are improvising, but we're improvising toward structure of some kind. Even if it's comprovisation, we're sort of composing and improvising and it's hard to really differentiate which one you're doing at any given moment because when you're composing you don't know what's gonna happen next. Like what note is gonna come after this or what. So you're still improvising somewhat, but you're giving it a structure so that it can be repeated or someone else can interpret it. But I feel like we're always doing both of those things at once in any kind of creativity. It's not even that we're balancing them. I honestly think maybe they're the same thing. I can't prove this. But in my mind, I think that is what creativity is. It's when both of those things are happening at once. And we're allowing things to go where they're gonna go and we don't know what's gonna happen next and what's gonna come out of our brain or our hands. 

But it's moving toward something that coheres in some way, and I feel like that's what composition is. If you think even about the word, it's pretty much common to all arts. But so is improvisation. Whether I'm a dancer or a musician or even painting. What I mean, whatever it is, we're acting. I mean, you name the art form. There's structure. That's what makes it art. If there is no structure or boundary, that's hard to really say, “Oh, that's art of some kind.” But the making it is a loosey goosey kind of thing that we can't fully pin down. And maybe that's the one hope that we have against AI taking everything over, because it sort of mimics this process that we do. But you have to input the parameters for it in some way and it can make very surprising things, but in some ways it's just doing what we do. 

And we haven't fully figured out what we as human beings are, what our brains are capable of, but I'm sure machines will always be right there. But we're the ones that are making these things in our image, so they're kind of doing what we do and it's just a way of making it more predictable and controlled, I guess. But, I don't know. And maybe that's when people are using AI programs to make a new and surprising things. It's just that they're doing the same things that a human being does. It's sort of like I'm gonna put different things together and see what comes out. I mean, everything is sort of in my head already there and I'm just trying to recombine it and surprise myself and see what might happen. And every so often you hit upon something like, “Oh, that's interesting.” And then you can keep moving from there. Again, if things lead to more interesting things and more ideas, I feel like that's really the measure of success. That's the measure of whether the creativity is flowing or not.

That is probably my favorite answer you've given so far.

Sorry, I know I've talked too much.

No, it's awesome. That was amazing. Who do you think of when I say most creative person?

Oh, wow. I don't know. Boy, that would be hard. I mean, I know some very creative people. My closest friend in the world is Chris Ware and he's, I guess I can say, because we talk about stuff like this a lot. I'll put him on there because, I mean, he just always comes up with something that I cannot believe that somebody was able to come up with and also had the ability to technically execute whatever the idea might have been. But also that I can't really predict ever what he's gonna do. And it's always surprising and to me that I envy. I admire that. I am not able to do that. I feel fortunate that my closest friend is able to do that and I try to learn a little bit from. Probably a lot of the ideas that I've expressed today come out of the conversations I've had with Chris Ware because we talked about a lot of this stuff all the time.

So awesome. Follow up question would be, who else can you think of that we should talk to for this project?

Well, I'm assuming it's from what you describe that you're going like interdisciplinary. It's not just cartoonists like me. I do comics and write about comics. I think it'd be interesting to talk to people that you don't always think of as creative, like somebody that is a mathematician or a scientist. Because I think they do use creativity. 

I guess what I mostly do is pedagogy. And I try to bring creativity into that as well. But I'm just trying to think of people where maybe it's not so obvious that they're using creative skills. I don't know if you want to talk to a plumber but maybe. There's probably some creativity there or like problems, anything with it involves problem solving. It would be interesting to talk to somebody that has to solve problems, you know. 

And I'm assuming you're gonna talk to writers and musicians and visual artists, poets, what have you, right? But maybe somebody that is doing something even prosaic or just where you think it's more technical. I don't know if you're talking to people that are athletes or anything like that. But, maybe in a sport where there is some creativity involved in it.

I was thinking of something like that, like Brazilian jujitsu or something where you have to think quickly.

Yeah, like martial arts are very philosophical, right? And so there's sort of a lot of the same things I'm talking about where you have to empty your brain somewhat and let the body start doing things. Where it becomes almost a reflex. And that takes a lot of training to let your body do that because we tend to stiffen up all the time. And then maybe somebody that does something like that or tai chi or something or even yoga. I mean, it might be interesting. I don't know, but I don't do yoga. So I don't know, somebody that teaches? That are there just a prescribed set of things that they do that are based on a tradition. You do this and then that, and then that, and then that. How much room is there in something like that or when you're doing it on your own without a teacher? 

I think you find a lot of the same things are happening that I'm talking about where you somewhat have to improvise. “The next thing I do will be this” and you're gonna run into the same problems where it's like, “Oh, well now I try to do something that ruined the whole thing and I gotta stop doing my yoga.” There's gonna be things that hinder and things that keep the flow going. That would be all I can suggest is that sometimes maybe something that seems not creative or more technical or something of problem solving or things where to some degree, somebody has to make moment to moment decisions.

OK. Does being an educator, an editor and a historian make it harder or easier for you to be a creator?

It makes it harder for me to do comics because they're very time consuming. But I try to approach those other things in a creative way. So with things I've edited, I tend to avoid doing a strict chronological approach. Although when I reprint my own work, I like to just treat it as a document. So that's kind of different. If I'm trying to edit something by many people, I'm looking for those sort of poetic connections more than “We have to start with this or put things”. I don't like putting things in the categories before I start. I like to have the categories be organic, and maybe not listed. Let the reader make their own connections. 

With teaching too, I'm not trained in how to be a teacher. I didn't go to graduate school. I don't know what I'm doing. I just try to have it mirror my own creative process. So everything I do is sort of to try to bring everybody back to that point where they can't rely on just doing the thing they already know how to do. So I always like to equalize the students because there's always people that are just better at certain things and other things. I like to make everyone equal and just having some constraints and seeing what happens within the limitations. So I think everything I do is sort of the same process in its own way. So I try to put in the creativity in the way I approach it maybe and not rely so much on what other people have done.

OK. I saw somewhere that you mentioned that you didn't have it in you to produce another anthology for Yale University Press?

I don't. There's no time. There's no time because when I did those, I didn't have my teaching full time job and I have more responsibilities now because I coordinate a pretty large program that's bigger than some art schools. But I'm just part of a department, so I don't have a lot of help. That just takes up most of my time. I also think there should be more diversity in terms of editing and should be a younger person. Get somebody that is not the typical person that would do this. 

I love it when somebody just comes in with different ideas and a fresh perspective. What is the point of having an old man like me do it again? I've done it. I could do it again, but I don't know how interesting it would be. I'd love to read something by someone else. Honestly, it would be more interesting for me, and maybe somebody brings fresh eyes to the whole thing. So as opposed to wringing myself dry trying to do something.

I heard you mention in an interview that you “turn text lists into coherent visual composition” and I'm picturing your New Yorker First Date cover. Did you begin with a written out list such as “man holding dog”?

Yeah. Yeah. That's on the internet somewhere that interview. But it depends on the idea. So whenever I have something where I'm gonna draw a lot of people or people in a certain place, I do make lists. And then I edit there. There's usually too much, but what would I see there? Who would I see? 

And then you don't wanna have too much repetition. So you're trying to have variety and sometimes it helps for me to just make a list and start doodling first. And then if I notice something is going somewhere, what if I started to draw the people in the movie theater? Who are some of the people that I typically would see? And at first it would probably start with just kind of doodling that. But then as the idea starts to cohere a bit, then I'll maybe make a list so that I make sure I get everything in there. What about the person that does this or how about somebody doing that? And like I said, sometimes some ideas just are like, yeah, that's not that great. And I edit that. 

So sometimes I'm kind of an obsessive list maker. So to me, that's actually part of the doodling process quite often. But I usually start with the doodling and then as it starts to come into focus, it helps me to make a lists and then I can edit the lists and it helps guide me. I gotta make sure I could put all these things in the image.

OK. And this is the last question I have and it's a very personal question for me.

Sure.

I've always wanted to become a cartoonist but I've always been too scared. I'm too scared to suck and I'm too scared to besmirch the genre that I love. How can I get to the level of thinking about undertaking the lessons in your fabulous book, Cartooning: Philosophy and Practice? Like, I'm not even to the first page of that book in my abilities.

I appreciate the kind words. Let me first say that, but I don't have that confidence either. I really don't. The book was a way to let anybody that wanted to do it have a way in. And that's why I use a very rudimentary kind of drawing, which is not meant to be the end goal. I wish I could go back and put that in bold letters on page one. Like, don't copy this drawing style. This is not even a style. It's just so that you project your own way of drawing onto it. I made it almost more basic than the most basic diagram. And I think everybody can do it. And it has nothing. I think some people have made great comics. Often the best ones are not by the best draftsperson or the best colorist or the… It's not always about technical skill, if you have something you want to communicate. 

Like that Cartooning book, I hope it just gives people the confidence that whatever level of ability they have with their drawing that it doesn't have to be at a super, super high level of draftsmanship like that. You can still tell a visual story. And so my advice would be, just what I have to tell myself day after day. It's OK. I'm not gonna be the best artist. But I'm in this world. I have thoughts. I have feelings and that's all I'm trying to get down maybe on paper and if somebody else can connect to that, even if it's one other person, that's success. If I can connect to another person and they got something from it. They just helped their day a little bit to know someone else out there maybe had a similar feeling or similar thoughts or sensation, whatever. You just feel less alone in the world. Like to me, that's success. 

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on the end result. “I have to get my book published and make a million dollars” and all this other stuff. And I don't find that stuff inspiring that makes me not wanna draw. When I start drawing, usually I have to get that stuff out of my mind and just think about what do I wanna make. Like, what if I were paid nothing? What would I do? You know? What if it was something somebody will find after I die? They'll go through boxes of stuff and find these drawings. And I hope somebody does find it and it means something to them. Anything else is gravy. Somebody published it or there's like multiple copies of it out there. That's just, that's wonderful. That's not the reason to do it. And if you just kind of maybe connect with… You have something you want to express. That's reason enough to do that.

You've been amazingly insightful.

Yeah, I mean, it's just permission. I had a very, very kind of hateful dad that, you know… My family was not supportive. I have to fight this every moment when I'm drawing, that I feel guilty that I'm doing this and I'm not good at this and I'm terrible and I'm a worthless person. And I mean, I have to fight that every moment of every day and when I'm drawing, it's very hard to get those thoughts out of my mind. But, you know, I just look at what if I do draw something? That's a victory for me. I did something. I fought those voices that were put into my head a long time ago that were just very negative. And it's very difficult and most people. Don't have those thoughts in their head. And I know that. And to me it's just an extra burden to have those. But, I just think, well, you live to fight another day. You've succeeded, you know? 

My revenge on all that is to try to put something a little more positive in the world. I guess that's the way I've been looking at it. And if I said to myself, you know, “Hey, it's ok, you can put that on paper like that.” That to me is like actually a big victory because I'm fighting all these negative thoughts and voices that have been put into my brain that I don't even want there. And it's fine. It's ok. Maybe just tell that to yourself. “Hey, it's ok.” It doesn't matter if it's not perfect or it's not what I wish I could do. You just try to make something, like I said. Even if it connects with one other person, that's what art is. 

You hope that it connects with a million people. But start with one. Make it for somebody. I often make things as a gift. That was one way I would get over my blocks is I would think I'm gonna draw this and give this drawing to someone, to a person. And it felt like a 1 to 1. And it took that pressure off of. Like, “Oh I'm trying to get it published” and “See if somebody will pay me.” If those things might happen, that's fine, but that wasn't the motivator. And that’s all I have.

Thank you so much for your time. That's amazing. You have been very insightful. Thank you for your time.

Well, you're a very patient person listening to me talk and talk and talk. So I appreciate that you gave me wide berth here and I was just able to go off on all these tangents. So, thank you for your patience and understanding.

So, have a good evening and good luck on your creative endeavors, your children's book. I'll look for that when it hit the stands.

All right. Well, I really appreciate it. Thank you and good luck to you. Start drawing tonight.

I'll do that. Thank you, sir. Have a good evening.

You too.